In the end we agreed to disagree - hey, we are still friends - we are not going to let doctrinal issues separate us. After all, Paul talks of the unity of faith and not unity of doctrine. I am not sure we will achieve that this side of eternity.
Eph 4:12-16 MKJV
(12) for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
(13) And this until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
(14) so that we no longer may be infants, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, in the dishonesty of men, in cunning craftiness, to the wiles of deceit.
(15) But that you, speaking the truth in love, may in all things grow up to Him who is the Head, even Christ;
(16) from whom the whole body, fitted together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of each part, producing the growth of the body to the edifying of itself in love.
Anyway, I will post their views first then my comments.
I would be grateful if you would do me the courtesy of forwarding this to your friends who also received the first email. Reasonable that they should read a dissenting view and think about it, discuss it or (best) study it. Here goes:
I imagine these attachments and the people who contributed to them to have been well intentioned. It is very unfortunate that they are not consistent with what the bible teaches. I just believe that we have to be more careful about what we promulgate when it comes to God. This popular depiction of heaven and hell draws more on Dante than the bible.
"The wages of sin is death", according to Rom 6:23. Naturally - since God is the source of life, and final rejection of him will result in death. The people described in these 'visions' do not seem dead to me!
Rev 20:9 plainly states the ultimate end of those who reject God: 'And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them'. Subsequent verses may seem confusing at first, but biblical examples prevent a superficial reading of 'forever' as translated into English, as a timeless concept. The term rather denotes continuity - and may mean a short or long period of time. Please see Exodus 21:1-6; 2 Kings 5:27; 1 Chronicles 28:4; 1 Kings 2:10, 11; 1 Chronicles 29:27, 28; Acts 2:29, 34; Acts 13:36;1 Chronicles 23:13; Numbers 20:28, 29; Numbers 33:38, 39; Exodus 40:17; Leviticus 25:29, 30; Jonah 1:17 for examples of the use of this word - this is important.
Similarly 'Everlasting Punishment' of Matt 25:46 means 'everlasting death', which we know is the punishment/'wages' of sin (Romans 6:23). "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord." (2 Thes 1:7-9). Peter describes the fate of the ungodly as that of Sodom and Gomorrah: "the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." The meaning of destruction is obvious.
Please take time to study it for yourself - from the bible, of course. A short but excellent discussion by biblical scolar Rober Odom can be read at http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/How%20Long%20Is%20Forever.htm . There is also a very cheap booklet called Dark Tunnels and Bright Lights by Mark Finley and Steven Mosley.
That is my specific response. But I wish to make a much larger point if you will bear with me:
We all know we are rapidly approaching the 'End of the Age' spoken of by Christ. But what does it mean, besides going to heaven or hell? What is the real issue behind sin, salvation, life, death, heaven and hell? The real issue is the nature and character of God. This is the centre of the Great Controversy of which we are each a part: a challenge raised by Satan as to the integrity, love, benificience and justice of God - ie, the very Character of God. (It was to dispel the distorted picture of God - of One to be feared, arbituary and vindictive, always seeking to punish - that Jesus came to live among men - John 1:18; John 14:8,9; Matt 11:27.)
This challenge, that God was not as loving and just as he claimed, is the challenge that was raised when there was 'war in heaven' (Rev 12), and this will be the issue that is finally settled at the return of Christ and at the final judgment, when rewards and punishment are meted out - for Satan in particular, for whom 'hell' is really prepared (Matt 25:41). The salvation story is not only about us as individuals. The purpose is for all the Universe (s), heavenly beings as well as earthly ones, to see and agree that Satan was dead wrong - that God is love, mercy and justice all at the same time. (just as He revealed himself to Moses, Exodus 33:18, 19)
If not for this issue of who God is, we wouldn't be here: the sin problem could have been aborted the moment (or even before) it started.
Why am I talking about this? Because to understand how the Enemy works, one must understand his ultimate purpose, which is to create among people a false understanding of the nature and character of God. He does not accomplish this by blatent lies (too obvious), but by half-truths. The very definition of deception is that it must seem acceptable or potientially credible to work. The mixture of truth and falsehood is the classic MO of Satan. One of his favourite areas of focus is this issue of life/death, mortality/immortality, heaven/hell. Always, he must contradict God is some way (Remember 'You shall not surely die" [Gen 3:1-5]?); but there is nearly always some truth, or how could he deceive even Christians? In fact, he is a great impersinator, even of Jesus himself (Matt 24:24).
The point is, it is important for us to acknowledge that many of our most closely held beliefs, even as Christians, might not be truly biblical. In fact most usually our belief systems here in the west - our view of the world, life, God - are generally derived from many sources, carried from generation to generation. In fact, historically many if not most of our 'Christian' traditions are just that - traditions carried over from entrenched pre-christian belief systems, eg Yule tide, Easter, keeping Sundays rather than Sabbaths. As another important example, the popular concept of an 'immortal soul' is not from the bible, nor is the notion that we may exist in any form apart from our bodies. [When our bodies die so do we; otherwise there is no purpose in the final ressurection, is there? So no, our loved ones do not 'die and go to heaven', but simply die - that is, sleep - as Lazarus did, before Jesus called him back to life; as we do, until the ressurection - when we are called to life, all at once! (Eccl 9:5,10; John 11:11; 1 Cor 15:50-52; 1 Thes 4: 16-18) Jesus frequently used the term sleep to refer to death. (Mark 5:39; John 11:11-13) Jesus Himself, after two nights dead, had not gone to heaven (John 20:17).]
Why is this important to Satan? By feeding beliefs that are in contradition to the word of God, he undermines the faith that we have in God and his Truth. Yes, it is truth that is at stake here - I am not just being picky. Jesus was very passionate about the truth. (John 4:21-24; Matt 5:18; John 14:6) As with the woman at the well, he confronts us with our sinfulness (the purpose of his law, which reflects his perfect character, and therefore cannot change) in order that we will turn to him. If we are willing and accept Him, He saves us and His perfect righteousness stands in place of our useless righteousness which cannot save us. But this is merely the beginning of the relationship - of really getting to know Him and (by extension) to truly love Him. Prayer and bible study, with the help of the Spirit (John 16:13) are an essential to this process.
One of the writers made mention of a man with 666 on his head. Does he understand that the end time issue is an issue of loyalty to God and his Truth, at a time when Satan is mixing the truth up all around us? (Matt 24:24) And when the only thing we can rely on is His word, and our personal relationship and experience with Him? The 'mark of the beast' (Rev 14:9) is not something literally visible, nor is it the mark of someone with 'lifestyle issues' of drugs, sex,etc - but of christians who have not valued truth and obedience to God's word above anything else. It is the mark of those who align themselves - actively or passively - with any system, religious or otherwise, whose purpose is to contradict God's word. Any of us can be used for Satan's purposes if we help to perpetuate untruths.
First ask yourself, Is the Person who would subject people to such disgusting and heinious torture depicted in the attached stories consistent with the God presented in the bible, who loves humans enough to become human, live with them and die for them?
When studying it is very important that the bible is studied carefully, prayerfully and in as a whole (it generally explains it self very well); we must be prepared to read other sources if necessary to understand the context. Most of all, it is important to put away any preconceived notions, even those that are well-entrenched or impressed upon us in children by our well-meaning parents, teachers and ministers.
You know, the various writers of different parts of the bible, Old and New Testaments, have one thing in common, which is that they depict events and persons (yes, even our 'heros' of faith) as they were, warts and all, ugly stories as well as beautiful ones. This is because God wants it that way - even when we read things that - superficially - make God not look good. Even in those cases, we are reading not uncomfortable truths about God, but of human flaws and the sinful state, even of those that claim to serve Him. It is of course a common feature of Hebrew literature, for example, to present all events as direct 'acts of God', as insurers still refer to natural disasters today. We might sometimes be initially confused. But to the careful, enlightened student who takes the time - who remembers the ultimate purpose of ALL scripture, which is to reveal to us some truth about the nature and character of God - God always looks good. And when he expresses himself directly, there is no question whatsover - whether to Moses on the mountain (Exodus 34:6,7 -read chap 33 and 34) or in the flesh as our Christ. ("And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." 1 John 5:20.)
For generations, many well-intentioned believers have been tempted to add, exaggerate, even create new stories, that we think will have a certain desired effect, eg depictions of hell to frighten people into (superficially, grudgingly) serving God. But this is not God's desired effect. These are shortcuts, and ultimately counterproductive. He only wants people to know the truth about Him and make a choice - an informed choice. For another example, statements intended to comfort the bereaved, such as 'She is in heaven now', or 'Mom is looking down on me', etc - apart from being contrary to the bible, if you really think about them, are not good. (Think about it.) God does not want that kind of help - and Jesus was passionate about that - because the scriptures, all of it, and the gospel story - are there to tell us about God. (Matt 5:18; John 5:39; Luke 4:16-21). Yes, written by men but inspired by God and miraculously preserved by Him for precisely this purpose. Those horrible depictions by those well-intentioned (we hope) young people are not, thankfully, consistent with the God of the Scriptures.
What a shame that many Christians are worshipping (so they think) God out of fear, as pagans do their gods. With the picture that many people are taught and believe about God, I sometimes think the ones who reject the church are exercising more integrity! I might also refuse to worship such a god!
Jesus warned us in Matt 24 that not all visions, dreams or teaching comes from God. Whenever we are presented with a statement or doctrine about God, let us take the approach of the Bereans in Acts 17:11.
Let's ensure that at all times and in all things, we are worshipping him (as best we know) 'in Spirit and in Truth'. Let's be that salt and light to the world!
Now to my response:
Good to hear from you. I did forward the email as you requested, before I had read it as it was quite lengthy. I have however managed to go through it today and here is my response.
First of all, I disagree with your view about a God who is so loving not being capable of sending people to Hell. I know and have absolutely no doubt and do teach and preach that God is Love. God doesn't have love, He is the very embodiment of Love. He is Love. Jesus Christ was made a manifestation of His Love for us. As the Word became flesh, so Love came and dwelt among men. That is what I know and believe.
However, God's Love for us is such that if we make a choice to go to hell by failing to choose the sacrifice that reconciles us to Him - Jesus Christ, His Love that allows us to have freedom to choose has to let us go to Hell. Why? Because He is just. His justice is such that He cannot break His Word. Now, don't get me wrong, God doesn't want a single one of us to go to Hell; but at the same time, will not deny us our choice. He will do everything to get us not to go there, but if we reject Jesus - then we will go there because He is JUST. That is the very essence of His Kingdom. We are offered mercy, but if we reject mercy - we get justice - and that justice means Hell. You see, people think it is all their sins that gets them to hell - but the thing is this - the only sin that can take you to hell is this - rejecting the Son of God and the sacrifice He made for us.
Also, you say the wages of sin is death and rightly so. For you death means ceasing to exist. However, death means complete and total separation from God. In Genesis, when God told Adam that should they eat from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they shall surely die. They did eat - but we do not see them physically die - did God lie? No, He did not for it is impossible for Him to lie. Death meant separation from God. For these - Adam and Eve, who had lived all this time in God's glory walking with Him in the cool of the day and fellowshipping, separation from God was death. They no longer had access to His glory. The moment they sinned - God's glory, their covering left them. That is when physical death was introduced in the earth - it took hundreds of years to manifest, but it was there. However, the moment they sinned, another death was introduced that took effect immediately - spiritual death. That is why Jesus had to come and die in our place, that through Him, we may be 'born-again' of the Spirit and become one with God again - have access to Him through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Now we can enter boldly into the presence of God as Adam would - why - because no longer are we dead to God, but the life we now live - we live through Jesus Christ the Son of God who has made access available to God through a new a living way.
Now about the descriptions of Hell not being consistent with scripture, I do beg to differ. Let me start with this. Jesus himself mentioned.
Mar 9:42 And whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believe in Me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck and he were cast into the sea.
Mar 9:43 And if your hand offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than to have two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched
Mar 9:44 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if your foot offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame than to have two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched
Mar 9:46 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if your eye offends you, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes to be cast into hell fire
Mar 9:48 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
That is very clear about hell being a place where the fire is not quenched and the worm dieth not. Consistent with what the youth saw in their vision. I will try and provide some more scripture here that does clearly show that Hell is real and it is a place where those who reject Christ are. By the way, Hell was never made for man - it was made for the devil and his angels - but those who choose the devil will join the devil eventually.
Mat 25:41 Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!
Secondly, the purpose of such visions is not to scare people, but to alert them to the fact that hell is real and heaven is real. We need to get out of our cushy sterile Christianity that is so focused on 'me' and get to a place where we are actively motivated to preach the Gospel - not with condemnation and not in fear, but genuinely loving the unbeliever with the heart that God loves them - not wanting them to experience the horror of hell (which I maintain is real). God in His love doesn't want us to go to hell, and perfect love casts out all fear.
So, maybe I can set the record straight here:
Isa 24:22 And they will be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in a pit or dungeon; they will be shut up in prison, and after many days they will be visited, inspected, and punished or pardoned. [Zech. 9:11, 12; II Pet. 2:4; Jude 6.]
2Pe 2:4 For God did not [even] spare angels that sinned, but cast them into hell, delivering them to be kept there in pits of gloom till the judgment and their doom.
Jud 1:6 And angels who did not keep (care for, guard, and hold to) their own first place of power but abandoned their proper dwelling place--these He has reserved in custody in eternal chains (bonds) under the thick gloom of utter darkness until the judgment and doom of the great day.
These show that Hell is a place that exists even now and was reserved for the devil and his angels - those who sinned against God.
Pro 7:26 For she has cast down many wounded; indeed, all her slain are a mighty host. [Neh. 13:26.]
Pro 7:27 Her house is the way to Sheol (Hades, the place of the dead), going down to the chambers of death. (AMP )
Pro 7:26 For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.
Pro 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. (KJV)
Neh 13:26 Did not Solomon king of Israel act treacherously against God and miss the mark on account of such women? Among many nations there was no king like him. He was loved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel; yet strange women even caused him to sin [when he was old he turned treacherously away from the Lord to other gods, and God rent his kingdom from him]. [I Kings 11:1-11.]
These talk about the house of the unfaithful woman being the way to Sheol or Hell.
Jon 2:2 And said, I cried out of my distress to the Lord, and He heard me; out of the belly of Sheol cried I, and You heard my voice. [Ps. 120:1; 130:1; 142:1; Lam. 3:55-58.] AMP
Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. KJV
Jon 2:6 I went down to the bottoms and the very roots of the mountains; the earth with its bars closed behind me forever. Yet You have brought up my life from the pit and corruption, O Lord my God.
Once more talks about the pit alluded to earlier.
Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. (KJV)
Isa 14:9 Sheol (Hades, the place of the dead) below is stirred up to meet you at your coming [O tyrant Babylonian rulers]; it stirs up the shades of the dead to greet you--even all the chief ones of the earth; it raises from their thrones [in astonishment at your humbled condition] all the kings of the nations.
Isa 14:10 All of them will [tauntingly] say to you, Have you also become weak as we are? Have you become like us?
Isa 14:11 Your pomp and magnificence are brought down to Sheol (the underworld), along with the sound of your harps; the maggots [which prey upon dead bodies] are spread out under you and worms cover you [O Babylonian rulers]. (AMP)
Isa 14:9 "In the place of the dead there is excitement over your arrival. The spirits of world leaders and mighty kings long dead stand up to see you.
Isa 14:10 With one voice they all cry out, 'Now you are as weak as we are!
Isa 14:11 Your might and power were buried with you. The sound of the harp in your palace has ceased. Now maggots are your sheet, and worms your blanket.' (NLT)
Mat 10:28 "Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (NLT)
These talk of their being living beings/people in Hell. Also talks about worms or maggots, which Jesus talked of. Hell is a place of weakness. So, there is a place where people do go after they are dead, and in those in hell do have a body.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (KJV)
Mat 13:37 He answered, He Who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed means the children of the kingdom; the darnel is the children of the evil one,
Mat 13:39 And the enemy who sowed it is the devil. The harvest is the close and consummation of the age, and the reapers are angels.
Mat 13:40 Just as the darnel (weeds resembling wheat) is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the close of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of offense [persons by whom others are drawn into error or sin] and all who do iniquity and act wickedly,
Mat 13:42 And will cast them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and wailing and grinding of teeth. (AMP)
Luk 16:23 And in Hades (the realm of the dead), being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried out and said, Father Abraham, have pity and mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Child, remember that you in your lifetime fully received [what is due you in] comforts and delights, and Lazarus in like manner the discomforts and distresses; but now he is comforted here and you are in anguish.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who want to pass from this [place] to you may not be able, and no one may pass from there to us. (AMP)
These and more talk of Hell being a place of fire, where there is burning. And see, the rich man in the story of Lazarus is in hell. The flames are not metaphorical as water would not suffice to cool his tongue.
Rev 9:2 He opened the long shaft of the Abyss (the bottomless pit), and smoke like the smoke of a huge furnace puffed out of the long shaft, so that the sun and the atmosphere were darkened by the smoke from the long shaft. [Gen. 19:28; Exod. 19:18; Joel 2:10.] (AMP)
Where there is smoke - there must be a fire.
Rev 14:10 He too shall [have to] drink of the wine of God's indignation and wrath, poured undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [Gen. 19:24.]
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no respite (no pause, no intermission, no rest, no peace) day or night--these who pay homage to the beast and to his image and whoever receives the stamp of his name upon him. [Isa. 34:10.] (AMP)
Also here we see that there is a place for those who reject God - and they are tormented forever and ever. I don't know what forever means to you in English, but I know forever means everlastingly: for a limitless time.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and the One Who was seated upon it, from Whose presence and from the sight of Whose face earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 I [also] saw the dead, great and small; they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged (sentenced) by what they had done [their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books.
Rev 20:13 And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) surrendered the dead in them, and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done [according to their motives, aims, and works].
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's [name] was not found recorded in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.
After the White Throne Judgment - Hell and death are thrown into the lake of fire - which means they must exist today. Notice there are no rewards at this judgment because it is a judgment for those who are apart from God - who rejected God.
One key factor of Christianity is that Christ paid the price for us in hell. He wasn't in some suspended state after He died on the cross. He went to Hell and disarmed principalities and powers, gaining our freedom for us.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
So now, is this to scare us - no - because once we receive Christ into our lives, we never will experience hell. This is to remind us of where the rest will go if they reject Christ. So it is up to us to preach Christ to them - to tell them that God loves them so much He wants each and every one of them to be delivered from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom if His dear Son.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
So, if you are born again as the Word of God teaches then you have no need to fear hell. You have heaven to look forward to.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
So, at the end of the day, whether you believe or not is up to you. But what about those who don't know Him yet. We need to preach Christ - the God of Love who doesn't want them to experience death - separation from Him - but life - abundant life - John 10:10. Let us have a passion for what God has a passion for - souls.
That is my response to your email. These are just a few scriptures I have picked where the Bible talks of Hell. There are so many more.
For further reference I would recommend that you look at:
http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews
http://www.amazon.com/23
http://www.spiritlessons.com/
These talk more in depth than what I can do in this limited space and give scripture references. There is so much reference on Heaven and Hell and how each is a real place with real people.
So, in conclusion, God is LOVE and never doubt that, and in His LOVE He does not want anyone to go to Hell. It is our responsibility as long as we have breath - to worship Him in Spirit and Truth - and to Love Him - which means to obey His commandments:
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
So let the knowledge of the existence of Heaven and Hell spur us on to reach more and more for Christ. He needs us to do it as we are His mouthpiece on the earth.
Well, that is it. Comments please - keep it clean though.
Posted September 12, 2007 | 02:53 PM (EST)